and fiction. i think they were very instrumental in this dissolution of fact-based journalism in american culture and american media blurring the lines with salacious headlines and stories. but it's not been all wrong in 2070 enquirer did break the true story about john edwards, then democratic presidential hopeful of having an affair and fathering a child with a former campaign staffer. a point trump made when he defended the papers credibility years later, this was a magazine that frankly, in many respects should be very respected. they got o j, they got edwards and it should be noted that senator marco rubio was another one of those who was seen as a trump rival. >> he was another one of those targeted by the enquirer back in 2016, he was actually asked about that today. he basically blew it off saying that isn't that the same publication that said elvis was alive right

tells you what some of them stand in this day and age. >> all right. jason carroll. thank you very much and thanks so much to all of you. anderson starts now good evening. >> welcome to cnn special primetime coverage. the trump hush money trial. the first ever criminal trial. bill, former president, and there's a lot to bring you from a truncated but busy day six. that's all the judge wanted defense attorney. he's losing credibility. also testimony from david pecker, the former tab hi boy publisher, who became the trump campaigns eyes and ears. and tonight new reporting and discussions are underway about what to do if the former president is actually jailed for contempt. quite a de, a lot to get to judge merchan's warning came as trump attorney todd blanche tried to answer prosecution evidence during contempt hearing with the jury, not present the judge saying, quote, you're losing all credibility with the court but making no decision on the matter. then testimony continued from david pecker, who took jurors deeper into the world of catch and kill, detailing how his national

enquirer or sought out stories that might damage the trump campaign in order to catch them and then bury them afterwards, the cameras rolling, viewers watching the former president spoke out about not being allowed. he believes to speak out you have a gag order which to be as totally i got stuck i'm not allowed to talk with people are allowed to talk about me so they can talk about me, they can say whatever they want, they can live. >> but i'm not allowed to sit back and look at my conflicted, judge. it's i don't think anybody's well, nor has anyone seen what might happen if he's jail for violating that order, which to be fair does not yet appear to be on the table, seems unlikely that said there's breaking news on discussions underway on how that might work. and we'll bring that to you in our special coverage tonight, joining us, this criminal defense attorney or their dollar bestselling author and former federal prosecutor, jeffrey toobin, cnn anchors kaitlan collins and abby

phillip. cnn senior legal analyst, elie honig, and cnn's kara scannell, who watched the proceedings today from inside the courtroom. karatay, start with you. what was like i mean, donald trump was there at the defense table again this time sitting across from his longtime friend, david pecker, who was getting into the actual heart of this testimony because the day before he this kind of setting the table to explain to the jury what the national enquirer was and what they did. >> and today, it was really bringing them into this alleged conspiracy this august 2015 meeting where donald trump, david pecker, michael cohen, all hatch this catch and kill scheme and made the decision that they were going to bury some stories, promote negative stories made up, stories about some rivals, all to help donald trump's campaign and david pecker really underscored that today. and then of course, getting into some of these, these two of the three catch and kill deals, both the one involving the doorman, one involving karen mcdougal, and all throughout the time, david pecker was very opposed. think a credible witness. he was

being specific in his testimony and he was addressing the jury for most of the time at the time, donald trump was variously intently watching david pecker and then otherwise looking, appearing to either be staring off or looking at this monitor in front of him, which actually gives a feedback because the video feedback that please in the overflow courtroom. and so he's kinda watching himself, watch the trial, so to speak. >> that's kind of surreal. >> i mean, it's it's actually the david pecker was made the point several times today that they were he was doing this to benefit the campaign. he wasn't he didn't say he was doing it to benefit to protect donald trump's family. it was to benefit the campaign that's the theory that's the prosecution theory, and that's what they're really trying to establish that this was not about helping donald trump preserve his marriage. >> this was a conspiracy to get donald trump elected president. the question is, and i think it

was a coherent theme theory about all the ways that pecker was going to help donald trump. where's the crime? that's the question is a magazine editor helping someone get elected president? that's what magazines do in this country. the expenditure of money is allegedly the crime, but you can be sure that i'm on cross-examination pecker is going to be talked to. they're going to say, you know, you're just supporting the candidate you wanted. that's what magazines do, right? kaitlan, how do you think it did i'm not sure that's what all magazines do not if people would like to have a word, but i think is watching all this play out, it's fascinating to see david pecker sitting there and testify in this way, and they're laying the groundwork to get to something bigger, obviously, with all of this and with his relationship with trump. >> but he met marla. >> he met trump visited mar-a-lago, met him in the 80s, worked with them in the night these worked with him when the apprentice became a show, trump

would send him apprentice ratings and they would publish them. and the national enquirer and david pecker was kinda saying it was this mutually beneficial relationship between the two of them, this two-way street. and then you he was helping promote trump. and then when he got closer to the election, he was helping berry negative stories, which he had never he talking about never done that before, never paid anyone for a story related to donald trump until it was the door man who has shopped chocolate, the shopping around an untrue story about trump fathering a child out of wedlock. >> but still, they were worried about it and mainly he kept making the point. i only wanted to keep it out of the press and so did michael cohen until after the election. and so that was the key he point that they really got david pecker to make today, which was saying things were different as we got closer to the 2016 election, are there what did you think of a packer? >> well, i mean you got to just backup before even takes the stand. the prosecutor opens opening statement this is a conspiracy. and who's in the conspiracy donald trump, pecker

and comb. >> now, there is no conspiracy charge. they could have easily charged some form of a conspiracy if they couldn't figure that out. but one of the reasons why i don't think they tried to even charge a conspiracy is you have three people in conspiracy two of them are gonna be witnesses and onto the defendant. why usually it's one cooperator and two defendants, not the other way around. additionally, anderson, he got immunity not a cooperation agreement, immunity, which goes to jeffries pointing things like there is really no we haven't spoken about a crime yet. there is no crime at this point. everything he's talking about, there's nothing in the penal law catch and kill theory is criminal. so that's obviously in summation, the process, the defense is going to focus on who this guy is and where he's all about. but here's what they have to get out in cross-examination isn't it true, mr. pecker, that one point, mr. trump said in addition to the campaign millennials and ed hear about this, it's only need is for that m&ms like yes, he was concerned about maulana. he was concerned about baron because it's got to be that the

expenditure is 100% for him to become president of the united states. i'm sorry, that's wrong. >> that's just not the law. it does not have to be 100%. i see jeffries agreeing with me. it does not have to be 100% campaign related. those campaigns should be both. >> i wanted to predict the campaign, but also i was worried about my wife. yes. >> the campaign has to be a substantial factor, does not have 3,100% and nobody would ever be able to prove that my view of david pecker today is he was a rock solid start for the prosecutors. you're not going in a win. your case that the first witness it's a mistake to try to do that. i agree that if the case ended right now, we'd have no crime made out. >> so he's sort of setting the table exactly what i think he did. >> that was really interesting is he took the jurors inside this cd unseemly world of catching kill and what happens behind the scenes at the national enquirer, he painted a very vivid picture, even just following along with the updates as we were doing real time, it was riveting and he explained how this world works.

he explained who the key players are. he explained what the relationships are that michael cohen is sort of donald trump's lieutenant and dylan howard was his lieutenant. he explained the chains of communication. so you're not gonna win at all with one shot. right off the bat. >> but i think it's a good start by the way prosecutors should not be high-fiving in the beginning, middle, or end of direct. >> it's all about cross because then you're going to have a good defense are like arthur aye dala trying to tear you down and they're going to score points. >> i got asked you this question. if here's the problem with. this whole case we don't exactly know what that secondary crime is. right. so you and i are talking about election law. we're not talking about whether he falsified. i think it's an opening shuck pace that he puts something in his books that warrants wasn't accurate. but if he put down i bought this suit to be present to run for my prints presidential campaign. but he was going to wear it also to a wedding. he can't write that off. it's not a campaign expense. it's gotta be campaign expenses are this is my campaign headquarters on paying rent for

it. and i'm only running my campaign out of it. he can't say i'm running my campaign out of it and i'm doing some real estate items, but it's not a painting, but if they were had this meeting is now infamous meeting with michael cohen and pecker and trump in 2015. and the whole purpose of the meeting was what can i do to help your campaign is in that setting up the framework for what does still work, get some two intent and that's the secondary part of the crime. trump is charged with thought i'll spine business records, but with the intent to conceal or commit another crime, and prosecutors were talking about this in court today with the jury out of the courtroom this that's what they're trying to prove with david pecker that the intent was to violate new york state campaign finance laws, which is just a promote a candidate. it's more artful than that, but that's the years spending money to influence a campaign. >> there are laws that regulate how that money can be spent, right? >> is that is that what you're saying? i mean, that's how much you can give. first of all, weigh less than $130,000 and that you have to report it.

i think it's worthwhile to step back and just reflect on what exactly the charges are here. and i think arthur's doing an effective job i'm showing where some of the questions are going to be raised. but the core of charges here, you have to start with falsifying business records. and so this goes to what we were just talking about. they paid this money to stormy daniels to hush her for the election and the allegations they falsified the payments they may try to make it look like an attorney's legal fees retainer and the argument is there's the falsification and you have to tie that to donald trump, which is not gonna be easy. and then the back half of it is you have to show that the motivation was political, not 100%, but that is substantial portion of the motivation was published. >> and this is where i think that the nature of david packers relationship with donald trump changing in 2015 is going to be the critical information for the jury. they were friends for a very long time. they were in this cdd york world, donald trump was, you know, as someone put it, a friend of pecker's they had that close relationship, but it wasn't until 2015 that

suddenly david pecker was talking to michael cohen every single day, almost trying to give them advice about where the story bad stories are. >> there. the nature of the relationship changed when trump started running for president, which suggests that the motivation was the election that was right there. and what we learn today that was also different than what i had remembered being characterized at the time when there was a lot of reporting and the wall street journal whatnot when we were covering the white house was it was written that august 2015 meeting that pecker had gotten said, what can i do to help your campaign? >> but what he testified to today was that trump sought this meeting with him, that michael cohen set it up. then when they went to the meeting, they asked how david pecker could help with the campaign, that it was the reversal that they were asking him how he could help not him asking them. >> there's a history here which makes the prosecution's case i think even a little bit stronger the relationship between pecker and trump was one of hero worship period. i mean, it pecker revered trump i

wrote about, i wrote about pecker in 2007 17 in the new yorker. this was no, right? well, before which i re-read the other day, we all yes, it was a trip down memory lane, but one of the odd facts that i always remember from that story is that you mentioned it briefly he actually published a vanity magazine called trump's style, which you checked into a trump hotel. it would be there with the gideon's bible that you got you got a free copy, but it was so over the top, in its praise of trump in his style and his wealth and his glamour and that was how pecker saw trump but in 2015 teen, he took that hero worship in, turned it to the campaign and it makes sense. and it's, it's really beneficial because pecker talks about they surveyed the audience of the national enquirer about a trump

ron, and it was overwhelmingly positive. trump was a fixture in that magazine but the viewership wanted to hear about trump two in a positive way, perhaps not in the new yorker use cite an example. i don't know if you were listening in on the call of of a of a call in the among national enquirer editors about stories there is a story pitch meeting, and that's how the piece opens up their pitch shooting a story about, i think melania trump not holding down from his hand or something. and david pecker says, on the call, well, i didn't see that. and then they tried to pitch the story again, which was a negative story about trump and pecker again says, i didn't see that and they get this sense move on, right? >> well, and i went to editorial meeting thanks of the national enquirer where they decided what was on the cover every week and pecker was very active in this. >> it was all about the cover for all about the cover and they had lists of who sold and who didn't jennifer anniston sold jennifer lopez didn't sell. i don't know why, but

that's true they also had words that sold or didn't say el on the cover tragic last days, always sold. >> so they let's say will live, i live in clinton, won one man were elected, but trump's sold that was the thing that in addition to this, this may come out and cross that in addition shin to the fact that pecker wanted to help trump that during the campaign 2015, 2016, trump was good for the inquire. that's what you're suggesting, abbe, in the sense that it was mutually beneficial because when they put him on the cover it's sold and david pecker said that today. he said we needed it at the time. yeah. >> could we have next we'll look at the trial transcript that we just got some of the key and detailed moment from inside the courtroom and more would david pecker said about the catch and kill scheme designed to protect the man. he said was known as the most eligible bachelor. also, what

karen mcdougal, one of the women who story he bought an killed, told me about the deal sciutto what is the point of the lawsuit that's how you make like it never even happened serve for you. >> okay. yahweh got orders coming starting a business is never easy, but and eight months pregnant. that's a different story. >> i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right and so did our business needs. the chase car and made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids speed it. and they believe they can do the same, earn a limit 1.5% cash back on every purchase for the change this ink business unlimited card from chase for business make more of what's yours they told us to follow our dreams then said they were unrealistic because passions don't pay bills but what they

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transcript from the trial today. >> and even though virtually nothing happens in core without a team move reporters posting it online almost in real time, even the facet for puerto can't capture the scope and the sweep and the full context of the complete record does cnn's john berman has been going through it, including more david pecker testimony in the catch and kill scheme and the heart of the case, some of the deals with former playboy model karen mcdougal, who story of her alleged relationship with trump was caught and killed by david pecker before we bring your details of the transcript, i just want to play for you what karen mcdougal told me in early television interview about why she decided to tell her story i feel like the. contract is illegal. i feel like i wasn't presented correctly. i was lied to and everybody involved in this deal i want the rights back and i want to share my truth because everyone else is talking about my truth, which there i need to share my story. >> do you have any regrets about the relationship did you say you had with him back then? yeah the only regret i have about the relationship that i had with donald was the fact

that he was married and john berman join me i'm john, you've been digging deeper into transcript. what what stands out, first of all, this is the transcript of just today, so you can see how much paper comes out here and the port where they talk about karen mcdougal, was at the very end of today's hearing, the prosecution saved the karen mcdougal part in any here, david pecker, raqqa counts being pulled out of a meeting from a phone call by donald trump to ask about the various whispers have been going on about karen mcdougal. we don't have graphics in this, but let me read this to you. pecker says in the testimony, he mentioned to me, he said i spoke to michael michael cohen. he said he told me about that time. he told me about that. he said he he told me about karen. he said to me, what do you think this is pecker saying that trump asked him, what do you think about karen mcdougal pecker goes on to say, i believe you should buy it. i believe you trump's should by the karen mcdougal story, trump said to me, look, everything he says, i don't by stories and he said that anytime you do anything like this, it all

always gets out. pecker says, i still believe we should take the story off the market. trump says, let me think about it and i'll have michael cohen call you in a few days in this, we do have a graphic of later in the testimony, pecker talks about how he was speaking to michael cohen. this is josh steinglass, the prosecutor. how would you describe michael cohen's tone during those calls about carroll? for mcdougal? pecker says michael was very agitated. it looked like he was getting a lot of pressure to get the answer, like right away steinglass asked what makes you say that pecker says he kept on calling in each time he called, he seemed more anxious. steinglass says, did you understand did you understand as to where that pressure to find out more was coming from? pecker says well, you know, i assumed he had a conversation with mr. trump's mr. trump was asking michael cohen, did we hear anything yet? >> you would have object. you can assume surgery. other word assume objection. luck jumping up before i was testifying, i assume this i assume that that's not those are in fact,

so objection. right? apologize for just oh, my they don't i do find the transcript fascinating. i'm dying to read it and actually, a friend of mine, jim walden who was brilliant attorney. he's the one who filed the motion asking for the daily transcript will be released. the people who aren't too happy about it the court reporters who get paid daly kopan to do but, again, these aren't crimes like nothing that you just spoke about is a crime michael cohen been anxious, is not a crime. it just means it's something that they're interested in. and that'll be when you talk about their relationship changing in 2015 we now know that when you declare yourself for public office, whether it's city council person or president, united states, they come out, they're coming to get you, which is now why we don't get good people running for office anymore because they go back to high school and see what you did back then. so i'm not surprised that once trump goes from being a tv star and real estate magnet to being present in united states. all these

people come out and yeah, it's a mutually he beneficial society and help each other to me the, the anxiety of michael cohen was spoke to the pressure from trump assumed from trump's. >> so i mean, that's the only reason that that matters. but the other thing i would just note, the karen mcdougal story is not over this is just the beginning of what we will learn a about this. karen mcdougal story. and when you look at the charging documents here for trump, there are some hints about where this goes. next david pecker ends up paying her, but at some point, he decides to not get reimbursed from trump world and i'm curious as to why that happened. so this is the opening salvo, but there's more to counter. so again, you're not going to find the crime a to z found in any one paragraph of testimony, prosecutors have to build a case here and i think two things jump out at me from the transcript. one, this is a full nine alarm fire in trump world and in the national acquire in pecker's environment, they are i mean, they're pulling each other out of meetings. they're borderline panicked okay. the

other thing is that establishes a really important chain of communication because this is one of the rare instances. there's a few were david pecker has direct contact with donald trump. most of its with michael cohen. and the weakness that arthur just pointed out is, well, how do you know that michael cohen was truly acting on donald trump's path? you can't assume you're right. maybe michael cohen when was just a free agent and michael collins not super reliable, but the chain here is david pecker makes contact with donald trump, who essentially hands him off to michael congress has cohen's going to handle this youtube, go and do your thing. i'll have michael cohen call you back in a few days. one of the things though that david pecker said today and correct me if i'm wrong on the stand, was that according to him trump was very detailed oriented and actually paid attention to a lot of the mundane details of this transaction. uh, he's not saying that he was aware that the line item was a legal fee, but he's indicating trump was very much involved in this. and

what you just read, john also backs that up, that according to cohen and we're cohen will probably testifies that donald trump is breathing down his neck very closely following the karen mcdougal. >> he talked about how he would sit with trump and trump tower on the 26th floor & trump's assistant at the time would come in and bring him invoices and checks, which i thought was a really notable moment. >> i he that i can reaand donald trump would sn it. >> i can read that this is from page 1002 of the transcript signing checks steinglass, joshua steinglass, the prosecutor asked, did you have occasion over the years too? there are mr. trump's business practices, pecker response? >> yes. >> josh steinglass asked in what context pecker responds. i was i had a meeting with mr. trump and his office, and when i was there, his assistant, rona, brought in a batch of invoices and checks to sign in. i observe mr. trump and i noticed that he reviewed the invoice and looked at the check and then he would he was signing them. >> that tells you a couple of things. first of all, it's very

important that the prosecution established that donald trump signed, knew what knew what the corporate records were. that's what this whole case is about. the other thing that tells you is that david pecker is not on team trump he didn't have to give that kind of testimony. that was he was burying donald trump with that. when i well, i agree with you. i'll tell you why not tell you one good reason because in 2000 shark moves on the remorse all alone okay. >> i agree with but he could also be could've figured out not a way to charge him but wait david horse before the cart. i mean, this is witness number one. he has even been cross-examined yet there is still a lot of road love to go here. and i think what they're establishing though, is that trump paid very close attention to what we all know, his finances. he doesn't part easily with his money. i was looking karen google wrote a lot down about her relationship with trump when they were having this alleged affair, which trump denies, but she

wrote down that trump was so careful with his money. he was so worried about creating a paper trail of their relationship that she would book her travel when they would meet places and trump would reimburse let's just step back for a second. if a a married guy is having an affair and and having sex allegedly with a porn star and it's starting to unravel he's going to pay very close attention. >> i would imagine to every detail of how this is being hushed up. i mean, is this not just this is not something you would put i don't care if he's the topic executive of whatever you would think this is actually something i would actually want to know all the details and that's he wanted to know. he wanted he heats it says that at one michael cohen. this has to be paid in cash, doesn't he? i mean, at one point he's talking about this needing to be done in cat. >> that's on a tape that michael kight, we're gonna here soon in this trial, michael collins secretly recorded

donald trump a shady move, by the way, i asked, i'd for defense lawyers in the green room with me today. i said, have you ever even thought about absolutely something that threatens your marriage? are you going to leave it up to michael cohen? well, but every detail without checking, like being an overlord on common sense, rational person would do but the tape that we're talking about here that michael cohen makes them donald trump actually suggests donald trump is like just get it done. he's not in the weeds in fact, at one point, michael cohen says none and i got it. alan and i are going to handle you don't worry about it. we're going to pay him. you don't worry about the how and the how is the crime. so when that tape comes up, that's gonna be a problem for the prosecutor. i also think that part of the thing about trump paying attention to details is more to what caitlin was saying, which is the amount of money even for a very rich person like donald trump he didn't really want to part ways with $150,000 for karen mcdougal, 134 stormy. >> he did not want to part ways with that money to get his attorneys tried to get out of it once the election was over. so it's really about the dollar here that was concerning

to him when we come back at decision still looming for trump and whether he violated the judge's gag order multiple times. the hearing earlier did not go well for the trump attorney with the judge warning trump's lawyer at one point that he was losing all credibility more than that ahead okay ready one more one, two, and three not so fast. the general's coming with you mom. he gave us a break on her car insurance and he'll look after you, too. yep. with flexible payment options for new drivers. >> okay. but why shack coming to to show you how it's done for a great low rate go with the jet you're calling some

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say's new album is breaking records before the testimony from david pecker today, there was that tense hearing on whether the former president violated the gag order. he is under a prosecutor cited ten separate incidents they say were violations since that order was issued last month by the judge. we're still waiting. the judge's decision, but the hearing did not go well for the defense. judge merchan repeatedly showing frustration with defense attorney todd blanche for failing. he said to offer any facts in his defense of his clients, social media posts and reposts about two likely witnesses and jurors. judge merchan saying, at one point, mr. blanche, you are losing all credibility. here are some of the posts that prosecutors flagged as violations. this one on april 10, from trump on truth, social writing. look, what was just

found with the fake news. will the fake news reported? it was above a photo of a 2018 statement from stormy daniels denying her relationship with trump another three days later, trashing michael cohen witness asking, quote, has disgraced attorney and felon michael cohen been prosecuted for lying and four days after that, a repost of a foxhole slamming perspective jurors allegedly undercover liberal, active, alleging i should say, undercover liberal activists are quote, lying to the judge in order to get on the trump jury the prosecution also brought up this remark from the former president outside the courtroom just yesterday what are they going to look at all the lives that last line in the last trial. >> so he got caught lying pure and what are they going to look at that prosecutors said that two was another violation. >> they'd be fighting another order to show cause today and just tonight, trump blasted cohen again in an interview with a local station in philadelphia, calling him a liar with no credibility

prosecutors are seeking the maximum $1,000 fine for each violation back with our panel also joining us is olivia newsy washington correspondent for new york magazine and former pennsylvania federal judge john e jones. jones. judge jones, let me start with you. what do you make of the judges rebuking trump's attorney like that? >> well, i'll tell you what. anderson i've been in this situation & under relentless questioning from a judge sometimes an attorney is just out of ammo, and i think that's exactly what happened today. would todd blanche and, he can't retreat. he's got a difficult a client. there's no question in my mind that former president trump violated the gag order at least in part sometimes an attorney will look at you when you're the presiding judge and his eyes kinda convey it. look a judge, i got nothing. i mean, i've i've used all i've used all amo that i have your attorney panelists will identifying has gotten that saying attorney

every now and then well, they will. and it's sort of a besieging luck. sometimes i go to sidebar and said, look, i know, judge, you want me to answer that question. i've given you all that. i have at this point. so it was like the charge of the light brigade. he had to just keep going at that point until finally, merchan got frustrated, made that comment about his credibility. i do have some empathy for him because frankly, a lot of that was indefensible and i don't think he had an explanation that he could render for it and good conscience judge, the secret service and other law enforcement are preparing for the very long shot possibility should say that trump might be incarcerated for violating the gag order. >> it's highly unlikely would ever get to that point, isn't it? >> he's not going to incarcerate him. i don't think now under any circumstances you know, he could make a statement and assess a a financial penalty on some of the

violations. i think the problem, as i said yesterday, is that he's going to have to tighten this order up. because there are instances where there is a collision between, you the former president's first amendment rights and what's happening here. there's another point that i would make here. i don't follow michael cohen on social media. but if i were the judge judge, i might call the prosecution aside and say, look, i know he's not your client, but he's your witness. tell him to stop posting because in a sense, he's he's inciting the former president. that's not a justification for violating the gag order, but fair is fair. and i think you have to manage this thing as it moves forward, as the presiding judge, i think that's one option. he could also drop a gag order on everybody, i suppose le do you think any other defendant would have been thrown in jail that's pretty drastic. >> i mean, let's let's understand. first of all, it's

very rare to have a gag order in place and in any case this type of defiance though, is something i've never seen before to have somebody. i think the judge is clearly going to find most or all of these now 11 alleged violations to have been met. the big question i have is what's the judge going to do? the next step? because there will be a next chapter. i'm sure this will not be the end of donald trump violating discount michael cohen, all the way to ice gag order hearing. good morning that's when he recorded the interview with the local philadelphia station from did that this morning and they'd gotten the motorcade and drove to the courthouse and had this contentious hearing where he was seated in the judge has an option. i'm pleased. it is not that he's not violating the gag order. >> his argument is primarily that he shouldn't be under a gag order. right. so he's not trying to say this is not what i'm doing. he's trying to say i'm the president you were in the courtroom yesterday, generally speaking, what is the dynamic lag between the judge and the trump legal team? very interesting. you can see that he's just getting totally accessed, exhausted by dealing with them. and the other day,

they had to kind of a smack down moment where the judge said at a certain point, i'm paraphrasing, but then a certain point you are just going to have to accept my decisions & accept that this is my courtroom basically and it seemed like it reached another another moment of blows today where the judges just losing patience. >> let me do that. in my opinion, defense is doing they're doing their job when the judge, like all these too many motions is do any motions anderson, the last case i was involved with a judge that there was too many emotions. there was a conviction and guess what the appellate court reversed on those too many motions. and throw the case out. it wasn't even a reversal. it was they throw it out altogether. but on the flip side and i agree with the federal judges with us there are some things that a client does better indefensible. and you kinda have to walk that line. i mean, you never want a trial judge on the second day of testimony to say, counselor, it losing credibility. >> if not, you cannot lose credibility with the judge or a jury you're done. >> let me judge jones, go ahead. >> there's another point and

again, i think the attorneys and the panel will identify with this. there's nothing more maddening for a lawyer. i don't care whether it's a prosecutor or defense attorney to have somebody sitting next to you buzzing in your ear and banging your shoulder and poking you and passing notes when you're trying to concentrate. in this case in this case todd blanche is dring to concentrate on incoming fire from the judge and he's got the former president united states buzzing in his ear about what's happening. this is a miserable position for an attorney to be in and it's just really rough to get through it. this was not a good day for todd blanche i hope he gets a good night sleep because this is tough. i mean, this is the kind of the time they kinda client who has lawyers wake you up in the middle of night and cold sweat. i mean, this is a very, very difficult situation. >> why lawyers have ativan prescription todd blanche it doesn't have a judge problem. >> he has a client problem. i

mean, this the issue here is he has multiple audiences. he's trying to win the case in front of the jury, but he's got a please, donald trump and a lot of what he said, i thought of this an opening statements as well, where he was talking about calling him president trump, and and talking about enormous difference to his client. that is not necessarily a way to win this case, but it is a way to keep your client had happy and that's gonna be a challenge for blanche throughout this whole or in trump's says that these these alleged violations were political speech, even if they were doesn't a judge's gag in order supersede that? >> yes, they do. but it just goes down to should there be a gag order to begin with again, with our colleague who's the judge said, michael cohen is kinda baiting him. i think that's going to work to the defense. and he'll be cross-examined on all these most recent tweets and all that stuff. but it is i look, i was in that position with the havi weinstein trial. yeah. we had a gag order on us and every day

after quote, we were you leaving we can't say a word and there's gloria already having these huge press conference beating the heck out of us, glorifying the witnesses. but jurors are walking past her as she's saying these wonderful things about these witnesses. and we didn't say a word. but i think what you said i've never seen somewhat violated yeah. go order. the way donald trump, i mean, we were very good. and to mr. weinstein's again, even think about violating the granite for trump is going to love being compared to harvey weinstein that's, you know, i want to play the assembler that i mentioned in the intro, trump began attacking michael cohen. >> it's from an interview he did today with our affiliate wpvi michael cohen is a convicted liar and he's got no credibility whatsoever. >> he was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers so, yeah that seems like a pretty clear pretty sure. it's pretty straightforward the places where it's not so straightforward is the retweets and the amplifications perhaps of his opinion maybe, but maybe

not threats or violence. >> i mean, i think what the judge mentioned maybe there is room here to kurt to put a little bit more of a barrier around what exactly is in this gag order because right now a lot of things could qualify and it almost seems like trump is pushing the boundaries of what it all could be just to kinda get under the skin of the court and to prove that he is not subject to this gag order. perhaps a more more specific gag order that it really does limit trump and the threats that he can make against witnesses and people who are part of this proceedings might tamp down on trump's sort of defiance instinct, which really kicks in and moments like, uh, judges. >> so it made clear when he was expanding the gag order, is this affecting the judicial proceedings? throwing off the entire case, and we've already had two jurors who are concerned about the media attention. this case is getting in the scrutiny that they are getting after as the prosecutors are pointing out today, some host on other networ were being really detailed about the detls of who these jurors were, what

they did, where they le and so it is a real concern about juror safety as well on trump does now commenting on the jury, judge, and then we have to go i think from the judges standpoint, i would just say i talked about from todd blanche to standpoint, this is a really rough situation for judge merchan. mean he has to be it's super clinical in doing this. and be really careful how he deals with the whatever his order is going to be in the sanctions case. tough stuff for the judge to more special covers coming up after a quick break, we're going to talk to a former prosecutor investigated. don't trump in a different case for bureau when anyone in this house wears white, it doesn't stick white for long white to our class. >> that's risky or has no rules. mom white with coffee, a dangerous endeavor light to soccer. >> i'm not going to slide tackle. >> he's going to side tackle. >> but now with tai doxy white, we can clean are white clothes

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that trump is guilty of a planned coordinated, long-running conspiracy to influence the 2016 election the defense countered in their opening statements saying, i have a spoiler alert. there's nothing wrong with trying to influence an election. it's called democracy. joining us the co-authors of the trump indictments, andrew weissman, who was a lead prosecutor& mueller investigation and nyu law professor melissa murray. so you hear trump's attorneys say there's nothing illegal about trying to influence an election it's called democracy. if a person or a company spends money to benefit a campaign doesn't that money have to be disclosed and reported, isn't that the core of this yeah i mean, literally what todd blanche said is true that it influencing the election. >> if that is the only thing that was proved, that that's not a crime, but it sort of hide the ball, which is how're you doing it if you are a corporation and you're spending money when you're prohibited from during that. that's a crime if you are spending more than the maximum,

what you can contribute, that's a crime so it was one of those things that reads like a good bumper sticker that i think that's one of the reasons i think that the state tried to get a very spark jury because the smart jury and a long trial hi, you basically can break that all down to explain why those slogans don't work here, so most of what is the underlying crime say it's a new york election law that basically says it is a crime and misdemeanor crime for an individual to prevent or promote the election of another individual here, the allegation is that by capturing these stories for donald trump, preventing them from being disclosed, paying off these individuals all of this is basically favorable treatment for donald trump in addition to the fact that david pecker also testified today that he was planting favorable stories and also running does favorable stories unfavorable stories? for donald trump's opponents. so that's a big contribution, and that's the way the

prosecution is framing. this was a big up for donald trump's campaign, and it constituted election fraud so in your opinion, windom trump comes out and says, we'll look i was paying a lawyer and we said legal fees. >> what's wrong with that? what's the answer to that so in this case, it's not just legal fees which professor would do, sorry, go into moser i think in this case, it's not simply that he's paying michael cohen, is that michael cohen is being is reimbursing. >> they're paying these payments to stormy daniels. there's the work that david pecker is doing and bringing in, coordinating all of this together. and that's sort of the misdemeanor part. there's also the tax fraud issue that is also been pointed to, hasn't been brought up. and david pecker is testimony. i think it will come out later on thursday, but the idea that donald trump had to gross up michael cohen in order to make him whole for the payments as he is actually reimbursing him for what was being classified as payments for legal services,

even though there had been no legal services rendered. so that's the given multi here. and i think what the prosecution is trying to show them, there's a lot of discussion of donald trump's hands and all of this is that he's very much a micro manager. he is taking really close looks at what the money is where the money is going to whom it is going. and this is just david pecker and michael cohen doing his bidding, but he is the mastermind, essentially the puppet master, and they are simply the puppets jeff, the prosecutor, questioning david pecker, noted today in court that the one in the election statutes, the case is based on does have a conspiracy provision. >> what does that send you about the way that the prosecution is trying to frame? well, i think there's a technical reason for that, which is under the hearsay laws if there is the conspiracy, even if a conspiracy isn't charged, the other statements of other people can be used against the defendant, like for example if you believe that michael cohen is a member of

this conspiracy& y's and felt the accountant is a member of the conspiracy their statements can be introduced at even though they are technically hearsay because there is a conspiracy charge that's that's very important, especially when we get into the money stuff. where why isn't felled will not be a witness. probably it looks like he's not going to testify, but his documents and his handwriting will be introduced& be he caused as a conspiracy that will be admissible against donald trump. >> i mean, is it a weakness of the case that if there was a conspiracy, why are they charging conspiracy well this is one of the weaknesses because of the timing of the charge so the statute of limitations, the time period in which you had to bring a case that had passed with respect to misdemeanors. >> so that's why we're all talking about well, what makes it a felony? plenty. and it has to be in furtherance or it has to be concealing some other

crime. and so we look to the election laws or as melissa just talked about, tax laws, because there's misdemeanor charges can no longer be brought because the statute has run, but there's a longer statute with respect to felony counts, and that's why what you have here is the product of the federal government having sat on a tan's for quite some time before this case was brought to manhattan. and then finally indicted. >> and is melissa question about something she said earlier because i was a little i was it jumped out at me. i understand melissa, about how i'm paying witnesses can be seen as part of a conspiracy, but you seem to say and correct me if i'm wrong, that advocacy on trump's behalf, like the magazine supporting supporting trump's candidacy, that could be seen as part of a conspiracy, isn't there? a first amendment problem with that? because magazines do support candidates all the time

i think there's something i think i've said something different, geoffrey, the point that david pecker was making on the standard de and what the prosecution elicited was that donald trump was coordinating with david pecker for this favorable treatment, i think in most campaigns, you don't see that it may be the case that a newspaper or media outlet will endorse a particular candidate. >> but i don't think we've ever seen a situation where a particular candidate goes to the outlet and negotiates with them for favorable treatment of his campaign. and unfavorable treatment of his opponents. so that's unusual and the way the prosecution has framed get this is essentially a psap to the trump campaign as though it were a contribution in kight. and i think that's a theory of the case, whether or not the jurors by this as a contribution, i think is a different story, but that seems to be where the prosecution is taking this as a coordinated effort. it is unusual and extraordinary and it essentially amounts to the kind instead of influence peddling that we typically don't see between the media and a campaign. >> but the money is the core of

it, isn't it? i mean, the fact that yeah. i mean, that seems to me the strongest ground that the prosecution is on in that part of the case i think a big part of this too is it's the details i'm like it's there painting, a picture of a coordinated effort between donald trump, david pecker,& michael cohen. and yes, some of this is about the payments to the individual to the fact that donald trump is coordinating with david pecker over and over and over again that he's going to trump tower, that he's inviting david pecker to the opening of his campaign, the launch of his campaign. all of this is to show that they are deeply implicated with one another. this isn't a one-off. he is in donald trump's pocket and i think that's the point that the prosecution wants to make because it makes it much easier than to make the point that he is now working with michael cohen to catch these stories to kill these stories into advanced donald trump's electoral prospects. >> summary, andrew weisman, thank you so much, everyone else to a lot more ground to cover. we're going to through go more on the trial transcript

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